The Big Three?

[Raksha]

As I'm digging through my sets of recent TF mini-figures, I noticed
something interesting. In each case where there are only 3
Decepticons and 3 Autobots released in the set, the same 3 characters
have appeared on each side. The Q-Robo set contained Megatron,
Starscream, and Soundwave for the Decepticons, and Optimus Prime,
Jazz, and Bumblebee for the Autobots. The TF History collection
contained Megatron, Starscream, and Soundwave for the Decepticons;
Prime, Jazz, and Bumblebee for the Autobots.

Now, choosing Megatron, Starscream, and Soundwave if you're limited to
three Decepticons, makes so much sense as to be a no-brainer. I've
always seen them as the equivalent to Classic Trek's "Big Three"
characters (Kirk, Spock, and McCoy) - not so much in terms of
equivalent personalities (though there's quite a bit of overlap), but
in terms of being the major movers and shakers of the series - the
ones around whom most of the drama revolves.
It could be argued that Shockwave's influence was just as
great as Soundwave's, since it was Shockwave who kept Cybertron up to
speed and safeguarded the home front - but he just never received as
much focus as the other three. He is, perhaps, the TF equivalent of
Scotty. (And Nightbird as Uhura ... hmm, okay, I'm stretching things
a bit... :) )

Anyway ... recently released figure sets indicate that someone,
somewhere, apparently thinks Prime, Jazz, and Bumblebee are the
Autobot equivalent of the Big Three. Now, I'm not an Autobot fan, so
maybe someone else can enlighten me, but - does that group really make
sense? I can't argue with choosing Prime (I hate him, but he makes
sense in this context), but the other two, especially Bumblebee,
strike me as being rather iffy. *Is* there even a Big Three among the
Autobots? It seems there's no real star or stand-out among the 'Bots
other than Prime. We don't even know who the faction
second-in-command is, for Cybertron's sake! But again, I may be
missing something.

So, to Autobot fans - who would you select as your faction's Big
Three, if you had to choose?

--Raksha




Broke? Unemployed? Paying too much for gas?
Do something about it! www.johnkerry.com
--------------------------------------------------------
"I am the Plumed Serpent, I strike and I soar!"
--------------------------------------------------------
All-time favorite Transformer: Soundwave ("The secrets
of the Universe reveal themselves to those who listen.")
--------------------------------------------------------
ATTCM - the Transformers at their best!
(request alt.toys.transformers.classic.moderated
from: postmaster@<your provider's address>)

[Cyber Punk 4002]

Post by Raksha
As I'm digging through my sets of recent TF mini-figures, I noticed
something interesting. In each case where there are only 3
Decepticons and 3 Autobots released in the set, the same 3 characters
have appeared on each side. The Q-Robo set contained Megatron,
Starscream, and Soundwave for the Decepticons, and Optimus Prime,
Jazz, and Bumblebee for the Autobots. The TF History collection
contained Megatron, Starscream, and Soundwave for the Decepticons;
Prime, Jazz, and Bumblebee for the Autobots.
Now, choosing Megatron, Starscream, and Soundwave if you're limited to
three Decepticons, makes so much sense as to be a no-brainer.
Anyway ... recently released figure sets indicate that someone,
somewhere, apparently thinks Prime, Jazz, and Bumblebee are the
Autobot equivalent of the Big Three.
*Is* there even a Big Three among the
Autobots? It seems there's no real star or stand-out among the 'Bots
other than Prime. We don't even know who the faction
second-in-command is, for Cybertron's sake! But again, I may be
missing something.
So, to Autobot fans - who would you select as your faction's Big
Three, if you had to choose?

Hello all,
Although I am a Decepticon fan, I'll put in my two cent's worth...
Hey, if it's to be a shot in the dark, it might as well *be* at the
Autobots! ;)

Optimus Prime, -that's a given. Ironhide as his subcommander. If
memory serves me (it's like a steel collander these days) Ironhide is
a gung-ho-Rambo-without-a-jockstrap kinda mech. Also likes to take
charge with or without Prime standing there. The third one...Hmmmm see
watcha mean...The Autobots *do* blend together. Grimlock, cuz he
wanted to take Prime's place as leader several times. Now that's
chutzpah.

I guess the Optimus, Jazz, Bumblebee thing is due to the
characters' popularity and/or eye appeal in the packaging as a set
(mainly): red, silver and yellow. The Decepticons (mainly): silver,
red and indigo blue. So with the three I picked out: red, red and gun
metal grey. Bleah. Nevermind that's what I think about the Autobots
anyway... ;)

-Cyber Punk 4002
"Some mistakes are too fun to make only once."
-Starscreamism

[Typhoon News User]

Post by Raksha
Now, choosing Megatron, Starscream, and Soundwave if you're limited to

three Decepticons, makes so much sense as to be a no-brainer.

Post by Raksha
Anyway ... recently released figure sets indicate that someone,

somewhere, apparently thinks Prime, Jazz, and Bumblebee are the Autobot
equivalent of the Big Three.

Post by Raksha
*Is* there even a Big Three among the Autobots? It seems there's no real

star or stand-out among the 'Bots other than Prime. We don't even know who
the faction second-in-command is, for Cybertron's sake! But again, I may be
missing something.

Post by Raksha
So, to Autobot fans - who would you select as your faction's Big Three,

if you had to choose? <<

Well, Optimus Prime is obvious, and I think Bumblebee makes a lot of sense
in that he's the "young" underdog who often plays either the
"damsel-in-distress" or the unlikely hero. He's the closest to a human
character amongst the Transformers. Similarly, as Brian Doyle pointed out,
Jazz has a closer connection to humans than most other Autobots.

However, unlike the Decepticons, a greater variety of Autobots got spotlight
time now and then - like Ironhide and Grimlock. Personally, based on the
cartoon, I'd consider Grimlock as one of "The Big Three" before Jazz. In the
comic, however, Ratchet has a strong claim to being in there.

As for the order of command amongst the Autobots, I always saw Optimus Prime
as a leader who tended to look for support from particular Autobots based on
the situation at hand. When planning a defensive strategy, Prowl would be
highly involved. Jazz, for more proactive situations. And in the middle of
battle, Ironhide is a leader the soldiers.

If this was about "The Big Six" (rather than "The Big Three") Bumblebee,
Grimlock, Ironhide, Jazz and Optimus Prime would all be there. Prowl,
although a personal favorite of mine, would have some competition from
Wheeljack and Ratchet for the sixth spot. Maybe even Jet/Skyfire.

That said, what would the Decepticon "Big Six" look like? Shockwave would
definitely be in there. After that? Skywarp and Thundercracker would be more
obvious choices, being the two other original Seekers. What about Ravage? Or
even Frenzy and Rumble? (Although you could say those last two might warrant
a single position together.)

Anyhoo...

Christopher "Beautiful" Carlson
Canada's #1 Nashville Predators Fan
"You can never have too many books."

[Raksha]

Post by Typhoon News User
That said, what would the Decepticon "Big Six" look like? Shockwave would
definitely be in there. After that? Skywarp and Thundercracker would be more
obvious choices, being the two other original Seekers. What about Ravage? Or
even Frenzy and Rumble? (Although you could say those last two might warrant
a single position together.)

Shockwave, definitely, to be added to the already established
Megatron, Soundwave, and Starscream. That leaves two slots open, and
it's a tough choice. I can't legitimately pick either Skywarp *or*
Thundercracker, since neither really outshines the other - and to pick
them both, would deny some of the other elements that should be
represented. We already have a "jetwarrior" representative in
Starscream, so ... I will have to say Nightbird and Laserbeak for the
last two. Nightbird because of her importance as a female Decepticon
and everything that stands for - and Laserbeak (just barely edging out
Ravage) as a representative of the smaller characters, who provide
their own vital contributions to the cause, despite less sheer
physical power. Why pick Laserbeak, of all the possibilities? I'm
personally more fond of Ravage, and even Frenzy. But I've noticed
something very amusing and interesting, as I look through my older TF
artifacts. In the UK items from around 1984, a very common battle
theme is not, as you might expect, Megatron vs. Prime, but *Laserbeak*
vs. Prime. I learned at this year's BotCon that this was because
Megatron wasn't released in England until 1985, and so the artifacts
manufacturers grabbed a random '84 'Con to use in their imagery ...
but if you think about it, it's not really as far-fetched and
unequally matched as it first appears. There are two occasions in the
cartoon when Laserbeak single-handedly almost killed Prime. He's a
powerful little guy. So I'd accord him the final place of respect in
our hypothetical Decepticon "Big Six."

--Raksha




Broke? Unemployed? Paying too much for gas?
Do something about it! www.johnkerry.com
--------------------------------------------------------
"I am the Plumed Serpent, I strike and I soar!"
--------------------------------------------------------
All-time favorite Transformer: Soundwave ("The secrets
of the Universe reveal themselves to those who listen.")
--------------------------------------------------------
ATTCM - the Transformers at their best!
(request alt.toys.transformers.classic.moderated
from: postmaster@<your provider's address>)

[Typhoon News User]

Shockwave, definitely, to be added to the already established Megatron,

Soundwave, and Starscream. ... I will have to say Nightbird and Laserbeak
for the last two. Nightbird because of her importance as a female
Decepticon and everything that stands for - and Laserbeak (just barely
edging out Ravage) as a representative of the smaller characters, who
provide their own vital contributions to the cause, despite less sheer
physical power. <<

After Shockwave, Ravage and Laserbeak both came to mind right away, along
with Skywarp and Thundercracker. (After further thought, I'd give Devastator
some consideration.) I'd personally take Ravage before Laserbeak, but
they're both great choices. I think the fact that they don't "speak" might
keep them off other people's lists, but that shouldn't matter. And like
Soundwave, they are both great examples of loyalty - to both Megatron and
the Decepticon cause (which some would consider one in the same).

Nightbird, however, I wouldn't have considered at all, since this discussion
began in relation to the three Autobots (Optimus Prime, Jazz and Bumblebee)
and the three Decepticons (Megatron, Soundwave and Starscream) that tend to
be the first ones released/re-released/re-made in special sets and the like.
Has there ever been a Nightbird toy of any kind? Even if there has, and even
though the single cartoon episode she appeared in may be one of the more
memorable ones, I don't think she truly has enough of a legacy to warrant
inclusion in the "Big Six".

Anyhoo...

Christopher "Beautiful" Carlson
Canada's #1 Nashville Predators Fan
"You can never have too many books."

[Raksha]

Post by Typhoon News User
After Shockwave, Ravage and Laserbeak both came to mind right away, along
with Skywarp and Thundercracker. (After further thought, I'd give Devastator
some consideration.)

It's hard to winnow down the entire Decepticon faction into just 6
representative characters (let alone 3), but if we were trying to
represent some element of that which makes up the Decepticons as a
whole, we'd need individuals to fill the following roles:

1. Leader (Megatron, of course)

2. Loyal advisor (Soundwave and Shockwave would be in heated
competition for this spot; in another time and place, Cyclonus would
also be in the running)

3. Jetwarrior (the backbone of the Decepticon fighting forces - and
while I can't deny the loyalty and dedication of Skywarp and
Thundercracker, the best of the best is Starscream)

4. Spy/Infiltrator (this is the Laserbeak/Ravage spot)

5. Female warrior (to balance the picture and represent equality - and
here the only "official" character we really know at all well is
Nightbird, but she's the ideal, representing everything a Decepticon
warrior should be; she also represents the "alien ally" to some degree
and the diversity that's accepted among the faction - *and* she
represents a ground-based stealth warrior)

6. Combiner/Gestalt (to represent the innovation and ingenuity of the
Decepticons, who developed this technology long before the Autobots
stole a copy - and here I'd have to agree with you on Devastator, as
he was the first, even though I personally favor Menasor)

These particular requirements would force some nearly impossible
choices, though. Soundwave or Shockwave? It's hard to say which one
has been more important to the Decepticon cause. Even though they
fill much the same role, I'd still be forced to nudge Devastator out
of the picture and keep my "Big Six" as previously stated, if we were
talking about just sheer importance to the cause. Although, if I were
putting together an ambassadorial and/or combat group, I'd have to
edge out Shockwave and replace him with Devastator after all.
Soundwave can do practically everything Shockwave can, and then some,
and has a closer working relationship with Megatron - and a group
consisting of Megatron, Soundwave, Starscream, Nightbird, Laserbeak,
and Devastator has the diversity of talents and abilities to meet
practically any challenge. There's unbridled physical power,
firepower, intelligence, charisma, technical knowledge, insight, speed
and agility, stealth and infiltration, and enough diversity of
personality to keep such a group endlessly playing off one another and
complementing one anothers' strengths and weaknesses. (This all
cheats a little bit, of course, and assumes that Devastator stays
combined and is treated as a single character.....) Somehow I'm
envisioning a great possibility for a story here. Oh, like I need any
*more* unwritten fanfic ideas ... thanks.... ;)

Post by Typhoon News User
I'd personally take Ravage before Laserbeak, but
they're both great choices. I think the fact that they don't "speak" might
keep them off other people's lists, but that shouldn't matter.

Well, we know that Ravage *can* speak if he wants to (we heard his
voice but once, in MTMTE, and that was in tape mode, but there's no
reason to think he couldn't speak in panther mode if he so desired -
he simply chooses not to), and we know that either one of them can
communicate directly to Soundwave, and even to Megatron. It's nice to
have a mix of characters in the picture who vary between those who are
all too willing to loudly call attention to themselves (Starscream,
Megatron), and those who are more quiet and contemplative (Soundwave,
Nightbird, Laserbeak/Ravage). Devastator calls attention to himself
by his sheer presence. ;)

Post by Typhoon News User
And like
Soundwave, they are both great examples of loyalty - to both Megatron and
the Decepticon cause (which some would consider one in the same).

Naturally. :)

Post by Typhoon News User
Nightbird, however, I wouldn't have considered at all, since this discussion
began in relation to the three Autobots (Optimus Prime, Jazz and Bumblebee)
and the three Decepticons (Megatron, Soundwave and Starscream) that tend to
be the first ones released/re-released/re-made in special sets and the like.

Sort-of. I wasn't so much going by the number of toy releases, as I
was trying to figure out *why* those three characters were so often
released and re-relased on each side. What made them special to their
faction, what made them representative? Upon reflection, I have to
agree that those three on each side *are* representative of their
factions (and their factions' respective ideals), but once we expand
the picture to six rather than three, we have the whole group to
choose from. Shockwave, Devastator, Laserbeak, and Ravage haven't
gotten that much air time as toys either, but as characters they're
all undeniably important.

Post by Typhoon News User
Has there ever been a Nightbird toy of any kind?

No, thank gods. Hasbro hasn't managed to screw her up.

Post by Typhoon News User
Even if there has, and even
though the single cartoon episode she appeared in may be one of the more
memorable ones, I don't think she truly has enough of a legacy to warrant
inclusion in the "Big Six".

See my reasoning above. She represents in one individual a lot of the
important elements that make the Decepticon forces as strong as they
are.

--Raksha





Broke? Unemployed? Paying too much for gas?
Do something about it! www.johnkerry.com
--------------------------------------------------------
"I am the Plumed Serpent, I strike and I soar!"
--------------------------------------------------------
All-time favorite Transformer: Soundwave ("The secrets
of the Universe reveal themselves to those who listen.")
--------------------------------------------------------
ATTCM - the Transformers at their best!
(request alt.toys.transformers.classic.moderated
from: postmaster@<your provider's address>)

[Brian Doyle]

Post by Raksha
Anyway ... recently released figure sets indicate that someone,
somewhere, apparently thinks Prime, Jazz, and Bumblebee are the
Autobot equivalent of the Big Three. Now, I'm not an Autobot fan,

You DO surprise me. :)

Post by Raksha
the other two, especially Bumblebee, strike me as being rather iffy.

Not really, depends on how you look at them.

Prime is the top level leader, the inspiration for all the others. He HAS to
be in the three. Heo's the father figure of the group.

Jazz is the experienced warrior, he holds a middle rank and respect of
everyone above and below him. He works harder than ther rest but always has
an encouraging word for the lower ranks, and sage advice based on experience
for the leaders. Ignore his advice at your peril. (He also had Scatman
Crothers doing his voice, so can do no wrong in my books, but that's
incidental). He's the older brother/uncle figure

Bumblebee represents the foot soldier, the newbie, the one who aspires to be
the others. He's the audience identification character. He's the kid
brother.

So we have a male analogue of the maiden, mother, crone triad. Eager kid
brother, wiser older brother and father figure; The newbie, the voice of
sane experience and the charismatic leader. Robin, Alfred and Batman... etc
etc etc

Those three make perfects sense to me. Note that, incidentally, those three
probably had more to do with humans than the others; Prime respected human
life and built that respect for it into his plans, Jazz loved earth culture
and Bumblebee was best friends with Spike.

[Raksha]

Post by Brian Doyle

Post by Raksha
Anyway ... recently released figure sets indicate that someone,
somewhere, apparently thinks Prime, Jazz, and Bumblebee are the
Autobot equivalent of the Big Three. Now, I'm not an Autobot fan,

You DO surprise me. :)

I'd think you were well beyond being surprised by now, Brian. ;)

Post by Brian Doyle

Post by Raksha
the other two, especially Bumblebee, strike me as being rather iffy.

Not really, depends on how you look at them.
Prime is the top level leader, the inspiration for all the others. He HAS to
be in the three. Heo's the father figure of the group.
Jazz is the experienced warrior, he holds a middle rank and respect of
everyone above and below him. He works harder than ther rest but always has
an encouraging word for the lower ranks, and sage advice based on experience
for the leaders. Ignore his advice at your peril. (He also had Scatman
Crothers doing his voice, so can do no wrong in my books, but that's
incidental). He's the older brother/uncle figure

Your desc puts me more in mind of Ironhide, to be honest. I don't
know that I would see Jazz as a "wise uncle" figure ... I always saw
him as being too busy flexing his ego and trying to strut how "cool"
he was, that he had no time to accumulate any wisdom nor to offer much
support to the lower ranks. He has a certain amount of battle skill,
admittedly, and a certain amount of specialized knowledge about Earth
terrain, but not *wisdom,* which I would consider something else
altogether. I could see Jazz as a representative of the
mid-to-upper-ranked classic car-alt-mode Autobot warriors, but I'm not
sure how he deserves that spot any more so than, say, Prowl or
Sideswipe or Sunstreaker. Though I think he stands out from the
others in his affinity to Earth culture, and is probably included for
that reason. (Though then there's Hound ... not quite as much of an
egoman- er, not quite as flashy of a character, and so overlooked for
perhaps that reason...)

Post by Brian Doyle
Bumblebee represents the foot soldier, the newbie, the one who aspires to be
the others. He's the audience identification character. He's the kid
brother.
Those three make perfects sense to me. Note that, incidentally, those three
probably had more to do with humans than the others; Prime respected human
life and built that respect for it into his plans, Jazz loved earth culture
and Bumblebee was best friends with Spike.

I think you've found the common ground between them. Not that all
three were necessarily the most significant characters, nor the
biggest movers and shakers among the Autobot ranks, but that all of
them have a particular closeness to Earth and humans. (Jazz and
Bumblebee even more so than Prime, just that Prime "has to" be
included by default.) They're all meant to appeal directly to the
viewer ... or at least, to the kind of viewer who's already
well-inclined toward the Autobots. It's an interesting observation.
The "big three" Decepticons were chosen for their significance to the
cause. The "big three" Autobots were chosen for their relationship to
humans. It's a telling difference.

--Raksha





Broke? Unemployed? Paying too much for gas?
Do something about it! www.johnkerry.com
--------------------------------------------------------
"I am the Plumed Serpent, I strike and I soar!"
--------------------------------------------------------
All-time favorite Transformer: Soundwave ("The secrets
of the Universe reveal themselves to those who listen.")
--------------------------------------------------------
ATTCM - the Transformers at their best!
(request alt.toys.transformers.classic.moderated
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[Brian Doyle]

Post by Raksha

Post by Brian Doyle

Post by Raksha
Anyway ... recently released figure sets indicate that someone,
somewhere, apparently thinks Prime, Jazz, and Bumblebee are the
Autobot equivalent of the Big Three. Now, I'm not an Autobot fan,

You DO surprise me. :)

I'd think you were well beyond being surprised by now, Brian. ;)

I try to maintain an open an constantly fresh disposition...

Post by Raksha
Your desc puts me more in mind of Ironhide, to be honest. I don't
know that I would see Jazz as a "wise uncle" figure ... I always saw
him as being too busy flexing his ego and trying to strut how "cool"
he was, that he had no time to accumulate any wisdom nor to offer much
support to the lower ranks.

Nah, he never had to show how cool he was, he WAS cool, and the essence of
cool is not needing to be cool... if you see what I mean.

Post by Raksha
The "big three" Decepticons were chosen for their significance to the
cause. The "big three" Autobots were chosen for their relationship to
humans. It's a telling difference.

Except, as a human, I want to be the first thing those bloody interfering
robots think about if they're absolutely going to insist on stomping around
on my planet... :)

[Bermuda Mohawk]

Post by Raksha
As I'm digging through my sets of recent TF mini-figures, I noticed
something interesting. In each case where there are only 3
Decepticons and 3 Autobots released in the set, the same 3 characters
have appeared on each side. The Q-Robo set contained Megatron,
Starscream, and Soundwave for the Decepticons, and Optimus Prime,
Jazz, and Bumblebee for the Autobots. The TF History collection
contained Megatron, Starscream, and Soundwave for the Decepticons;
Prime, Jazz, and Bumblebee for the Autobots.

Yes, in this case it works. However series 2 of Q Robo which never
came out, really throws me. We would have gotten Shockwave and Hound
two characters who rarely had any extra releases. Shockwave at least
had his Action Master, but Hound had only that original G1 release up
to that point. Then there was Frenzy and Ravage, kinda expected, but
maybe not more than say Skywarp and Thundercracker. And to finish off
the G1 part of the assortment, Sideswipe. If it were based on anything
related to popularity or screen time, I would have thought for sure to
see Ironhide, or maybe Rodimus and Ultra Magnus. Both Rodimus and
Magnus had been picked for several sets of figures early on already.
So being a Hound, Shockwave and Frenzy fan, I was very excited to get
the 2nd series, but sadly it never happened.

Post by Raksha
It could be argued that Shockwave's influence was just as
great as Soundwave's, since it was Shockwave who kept Cybertron up to
speed and safeguarded the home front

However, when you take the amount of material Japan had for him, it's
so little. Alot of people automatically figure in the comics
Shockwave, but Japan never had that side attached to him.

Post by Raksha
I can't argue with choosing Prime (I hate him, but he makes
sense in this context),

Right. Prime has lead almost every line up of novelty toys Takara has
sold so far.

Post by Raksha
but the other two, especially Bumblebee,
strike me as being rather iffy. *Is* there even a Big Three among the
Autobots?

Well, Bumblebee is probably one of the most well known Autobots ever.
His G1 S1-2 screen time almost rivals that of Prime's. I think
Bumblebee is a shoe in for that 2nd spot every time. I am surprised it
took as long as it did for Takara to reissue him. Although they have
used the keychain mold now twice, and the re-molded face mold twice.
So I guess they are making up for lost time/money.

Post by Raksha
It seems there's no real star or stand-out among the 'Bots
other than Prime.

Probably cause they always made so many more Bots than Cons. It kinda
created less time for each character. Hot Rod/Rodimus seems to get his
fair share of extra toys. Magnus has a few, and one that was canceled.
Sideswipe has quite a few releases now. I wouldn't actually say
Sideswipe was a standout however, not in the way of Rodimus and
Magnus.

Post by Raksha
We don't even know who the faction
second-in-command is, for Cybertron's sake! But again, I may be
missing something.

Actually in Japan, Jazz is listed as the subcommander, Primes right
hand man and 2nd in command. So it really makes sense that Jazz be
included if only for the reason to offset the Cons "leader-2nd in
command-most prominent" method of choosing characters.

--Dave

Contact me at: bermudamohawk(a)yahoo.com

"We're shameless, we will do anything to get our 15 minutes of fame.
We have no integrity, we're ready to crawl to obtain
celebrity....we'll do anything at all"

[Raksha]

Post by Bermuda Mohawk
Yes, in this case it works. However series 2 of Q Robo which never
came out, really throws me. We would have gotten Shockwave and Hound
two characters who rarely had any extra releases.

Oooh ... a Q-Robo Shockwave would have been amazing. :) I've been
wondering for months now if there was ever a second series. Guess
that answers my question. I was hoping for a different answer, but
thanks for the info all the same. (One less thing I have to hunt
down, I guess....)

Post by Bermuda Mohawk

Post by Raksha
It could be argued that Shockwave's influence was just as
great as Soundwave's, since it was Shockwave who kept Cybertron up to
speed and safeguarded the home front=20

However, when you take the amount of material Japan had for him, it's
so little. Alot of people automatically figure in the comics
Shockwave, but Japan never had that side attached to him.

I'm not even thinking of comics Shockwave. Yeah, he had a bigger part
in the comics than he did in the cartoon, but he stands out more to me
in the cartoon version. Shockwave was "behind the scenes" keeping it
all together, even more so than Soundwave in some ways, and that makes
him considerably important, even if we don't see much of him. I agree
with you, though, that Shockwave has been shamefully neglected, and
I'd love to see a World's Smallest version, or Shockwave added to some
of these recent lines of great mini-figures. You know, now that I
think of it, there was never even a Shockwave in the SCF/HOC lines.
Now *that* is a dire oversight! And surely we could have done without
one of the gratuitous Primes in the Bottlecaps collection, in order to
add in Shockwave....

--Raksha




Broke? Unemployed? Paying too much for gas?
Do something about it! www.johnkerry.com
--------------------------------------------------------
"I am the Plumed Serpent, I strike and I soar!"
--------------------------------------------------------
All-time favorite Transformer: Soundwave ("The secrets
of the Universe reveal themselves to those who listen.")
--------------------------------------------------------
ATTCM - the Transformers at their best!
(request alt.toys.transformers.classic.moderated
from: postmaster@<your provider's address>)

[Enfilade]

My vote for an Autobot Big Three would have to be Prime (the leader,)
Ironhide (the second in command) and Bumblebee (the most featured
soldier).

Yes, I know Prowl is the second in the comics and Jazz has also held
the role, but for most of the cartoon after MTMTE, Ironhide is the one
always at Prime's side, and IMHO, most deserving of the title.

Jazz, however, I must disagree with you Raksha on his ability to hold
a leadership position. Unlike Hot Rod, who always acted "cool" in an
attempt to get his elders to notice him and his peers to like him,
Jazz's slang and attitude appear to be a natural expression of his
personality. He rivals Hound for his ability to fit in with humans
and surpasses Hound in his grasp of and appreciation for their popular
culture. Nor can I think of any instance of Jazz's immaturity
endangering a mission or the Autobot cause (unlike HotRod or Blaster).

In short, Jazz is a genuine inner-city rapper with street cred; Hot
Rod is a white suburban teenager in Fubu gear. Jazz can put his money
where his mouth is.

--Enfilade

[Raksha]

Post by Enfilade
Jazz, however, I must disagree with you Raksha on his ability to hold
a leadership position. Unlike Hot Rod, who always acted "cool" in an
attempt to get his elders to notice him and his peers to like him,
Jazz's slang and attitude appear to be a natural expression of his
personality. He rivals Hound for his ability to fit in with humans
and surpasses Hound in his grasp of and appreciation for their popular
culture. Nor can I think of any instance of Jazz's immaturity
endangering a mission or the Autobot cause (unlike HotRod or Blaster).

I wouldn't call Jazz outright immature, nor necessarily incompetent.
I *would* call him shallow, though.

--Raksha




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[Brian Doyle]

Post by Raksha

Post by Enfilade
Jazz, however, I must disagree with you Raksha on his ability to hold
a leadership position. Unlike Hot Rod, who always acted "cool" in an
attempt to get his elders to notice him and his peers to like him,
Jazz's slang and attitude appear to be a natural expression of his
personality. He rivals Hound for his ability to fit in with humans
and surpasses Hound in his grasp of and appreciation for their popular
culture. Nor can I think of any instance of Jazz's immaturity
endangering a mission or the Autobot cause (unlike HotRod or Blaster).

I wouldn't call Jazz outright immature, nor necessarily incompetent.
I *would* call him shallow, though.

Why? (Genuinely curious)

[Georgia S.E.]

Post by Raksha

Post by Enfilade
Jazz, however, I must disagree with you Raksha on his ability to hold
a leadership position. Unlike Hot Rod, who always acted "cool" in an
attempt to get his elders to notice him and his peers to like him,
Jazz's slang and attitude appear to be a natural expression of his
personality. He rivals Hound for his ability to fit in with humans
and surpasses Hound in his grasp of and appreciation for their popular
culture. Nor can I think of any instance of Jazz's immaturity
endangering a mission or the Autobot cause (unlike HotRod or Blaster).

I wouldn't call Jazz outright immature, nor necessarily incompetent.
I *would* call him shallow, though.
--Raksha

What does being "shallow" have to do with leadership ability (which
was the topic)? I've personally been under the command of several
officers whose personal characteristics ranged from egotistical, rude,
stuffy, or outright boring. My assesment of their personality had
nothing *whatsoever* to do with their rank or position.

-Georgia